New Zealand Gold Prospecting & Metal Detecting Forums Archive

Lammerlaw,

I am aware that water consents are handed out by local government. In theory local and regional governments should be more efficient and effective than national governments. They are smaller and local and being closer to the citizenry tend to be less prone to corruption. Not always the case of course, but generally true. When I say ‘state’ I am using it as a general term to indicate government (as opposed to private) and am not referring to any specific category. I will just say ‘government’ to avoid confusion.

Now, you say I twist things, try this on for size: you have repeatedly asserted that government ownership of assets is preferable to private ownership. At the same time you have repeatedly used a private organization (Ngai Tahu) as an example of how government run enterprises could work (if there were better people in office). This is a completely circular argument and makes no sense. You either believe that government owned enterprise or privately owned enterprise is the most advantageous to citizens; which is it?

There is absolutely no question that privately owned enterprises engaged in free market capitalism are more efficient than government run enterprises. You can poll all you want but it will not change that fact. Stockholders do not dictate how corporations operate in any way other than in some cases stock holders are able to vote for board members. Mostly what happens is that stockholders simply collect a dividend if the board decides to issue one and that’s it. Your insinuation that corporations band together and set prices (like OPEC) is the exception rather than the rule and is considered a criminal activity when such practices are undertaken by private organizations. When government enterprises do so it is simply standard operating procedure, and it is of course the government’s responsibility to investigate and prosecute price fixing (of private enterprises). Think the two grocery companies operating in New Zealand are in cahoots to set prices? Could be, but then you are thinking that the government is failing in its enforcement duties.

Your statement that profits from state owned enterprises are returned to citizens in the form of lower prices is flawed an inaccurate. What is actually occurring is that the poorly run government operations are being subsidized by tax money. Kiwi Rail being an excellent example, it lost money hand over fist. That is the price of tickets and freight was well below the operating cost. That was not a benefit because you as a tax payer made up the difference. Now it is privately owned and operating at a loss and it costs you nothing. In fact it is now making you money because as a private company it pays taxes. Unlike a government owned enterprise, it will go out of business as it should. Think it is unsafe? Well again that is the government’s responsibility to regulate transportation safety.

It is not inane to make your own power, it is actually quite common. I lived in a house for 5 years that was not hooked to the grid. When I buy a house I fully intend to make my own power and the power companies (whoever owns them) can get stuffed. I also grew up drinking milk from the family cow, again not altogether uncommon. Other alternatives would be goat milk or soy milk, getting milk from someone who has a cow, or not drinking milk at all. There IS an alternative to everything.

Hear Hear - Agree entirely

Lammerlaw,

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree because I can’t follow what you are saying. What you keep using as an example of the way you think things should be the Ngāi Tahu Holdings Group. This corporation is a privately owned investment company. Who owns it is irrelevant; it has nothing to do with the government and is operated EXACTLY like other corporations which you seem to despise. They make a profit running a variety of businesses. In July the chief executive of the Ngāi Tahu Holdings Group became the chief executive of Ravensdown Fertilize. You seem to think it is good that the Ngāi Tahu makes a profit and the shareholders receive dividends. Ravensdown being coop does not make a profit; does that make it better or worse than Ngāi Tahu Holdings Group? Why are you in favour of the Ngāi Tahu Holdings Group making a profit on their investments but question my motives because I am in favour of shareholders receiving dividends from a power company? Like I said, I can’t follow your thinking so I am going to quit while I am behind.

Oh boy religion - Did someone say religion - I am a seventh day Adventist on Sunday and a Holy Roman Left Footed Extremist on Saturdays so I dont go to church due to the conflict within.

As for the hell you mention I highly doubt if I will go there as the boss down there would never tolerate competition.

Back to Greenstone!

Edited by user Sunday, 16 September 2012 12:05:01 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

You know Robert I am wasting my time - you had earlier stated 'Like I said, I can’t follow your thinking so I am going to quit while I am behind.' but that statement like others you are stating is not correct as you are indeed continuing to twist my words and not very eloquently so I might add.

You say 'Well this helps my understanding of what you are saying a little, but you are absolutely 100% wrong. The Ngāi Tahu is a tribe. the Ngāi Tahu Holdings Group is a corporation. These are two separate entities. The function of the corporation is to manage investments to make a profit ($630,000,000 in recent years according to you) - just like every other corporation. It has invested in everything from real estate to jet boat companies. Who owns the company and who receives dividends is totally irrelevant. Let me say this again, the Ngāi Tahu Holdings Group operates EXACTLY like every other corporation.'

In this it is YOU who are wrong - let us put it this way - ngai Tahu is a tribe - CORRECT - it is run by Ngai Tahu holdings - correct - Ngai Tahu has beneficiaries NOT shareholders!!! Do you get that. In this manner Ngai Tahu GOVERN on behalf of its shareholders!

State government is much the same - It could be said that the populace of New Zealand is one group of people just like a TRIBE of people and the state through their STATE OWNED enterprises run their corporations and utilities for the benefit of the PEOPLE.

A private business runs its enterprises for THE SHARE HOLDERS - those who HAVE PURCHASED SHARES ON THEIR OWN RECOZGNITION and are NOT shareholders or beneficiaries AS OF RIGHT. These private businesses must make money for the individuals who OWN the private enterprise. NGAI TAHU IS NOT LIKE THAT - it is more like the State government in themanner in which it SERVES THE PEOPLE or is supposed to but in the case of NGAI TAHU does so more efficiently as NGAI TAHU employ outside managers and directors which the STATE OWNED government should do.

You say - 'Now you say that a power company sells power to non-share holders which profit the shareholders; this is true. But the Ngāi Tahu Holdings Group sells jet boat rides and rents building to non-share holders. How can you possibly see this as being different? It is exactly the same. I really don’t understand why you think it is ok to profit from charging someone rent, but isn’t ok to profit from selling them electricity. Do you think the government should own the buildings and jet boat companies so that everyone is a share holder? That is a bad idea.'

Ngai Tahu has business enterprises to make money for its BENEFICIARIES OF RIGHT and deals therefore in business enterprises with outside agencies and individuals...so what - the State government also does the same...what is the difference between the STATE owning railways selling their services to third parties for remuneration and financial gain - it is the same thing. What is the difference between the State owning the Electricity generating stations and selling to private organisations to make money for the state and to subsidise the electricity costs of the shareholders - that is the citizens of New Zealand. What is the difference between the State owned communication system selling to private individuals and companies to subsidise the citizens.

NGAI TAHU employsnon Ngai Tahu managers to manage its affaris - It is you who needs to get your head around the organisation of Ngai Tahu - as I stated the tribe got a $170 million settlement - this is not the latest report but part of last years - http://www.ngaitahu.iwi....Of-Changes-In-Equity.pdf

Now WHY DO YOU SUPPORTS John key - he came from nothing - worked for Merrill lynch and he is now worth $55 million! EXACTLY HOW did he suddenly get that - of course he is clever - you seem to support him - WHO DOES HE WORK FOR NOW - you misread what I say, you twist what I say to suit your own ends and your argument is NOT logical in the manner in which you seem to think that Private enterprises such as Hallenstein or Rooney Eathmoving are the same as NGAI TAHU - total baloney - Rooney Earthmoving is owned by Rooney and makes money for him! Ngai Tahu and the State are owned by the people and serve the people and the State Should never sell state assets but rather place it in the hands of directors and managers who are paid bonuses on performance to run the Tribal or State owned enterprises on behalf of the people.

Robert - if Ngai Tahu was privately owned in the context you speak of I would never have been sitting at a table yesterday - Saturday - voting to make a substantial grant toward a hearing aid for a beneficiary - if Ngai tahu was privately owned I would not have any say for the last two years in choosing the recipient for an Educational Scholarship in much the same manner as the State subsidises YOUR healthcare and contributes toward the education of your children. 99% of private enterprises do not do this though some will sponsor some sport or grant scholarships but by and large very few as their only concern is making money for the shareholders - they answer to the shareholders only whereas Ngai Tahu and the State are supposed to answer to all elligible to be members or beneficiaries.


Of course Ngai Tahu and the State owned enterprises will deal with outside organisations and individuals but their profit is for the good of the entire 'tribe' - Now should you wish to continue please tell me concisely what IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN NGAI TAHU TOURISM AND THE STATE OWNED TOURISM AGENCIES?

You attempts to discredit what I say, twist what I say to suit your own ends, extol the virtues of privatization and support John Keys makes your motives very suspect indeed.


.

Edited by user Monday, 17 September 2012 12:14:19 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

It will be as boring as the above twenty four pages of drivel but one thing about me - if I feel that I am honestly in the right then I will never give up and simply cannot understand Roberts logic when he tries to make inane comparisons between Ngai Tahu and privatle shareholder owned businesses which operate on an entirely different principle - nor can I understand him attempting to twist my words - would you give up if someone does that to you? - and there wont be any book - not from me - believe it or not I dont even like writing - if anything I have too much time on my hands - something to do with bad weather and not enough money to go anywhere - such the life of an enigma and paradox.
And cynicism wont make you any friends...if you made a worthwhile comment of support one way or the other then perhaps one party or the other will realize that the consensus of opinion is against him and shut his trap - whether it be Robert or myself!

Edited by user Sunday, 16 September 2012 7:11:53 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

I have a funny feeling that what you know about Ngai Tahu is not worth knowing Robert - I am not going to be so bloody childish as to argue the point with you - I told you what it is about and thats it - rest assured that I am in a far better situation to know Ngai Tahu and its organsiation and to be able to make comparisons between a State government and private business - for a fellow who said he had rest his case and wasnt going to continue I see you have broken your word and continue to make an issue of it.

I think that your logic is seriously flawed in your comparisons with Ngai Tahu and Private companies like the ones I had mentioned - I am not going to waste my time repeating over and over again to someone who seems to know it all. DONT you get it that Ngai Tahu holdings is the business sector just like State owned enterprises are - so what? There is absolutely no difference but they ARE NOT private enterprises as you seem to insist they are as Private...do I really really have to repeat myself because you cannot actually understand that

1. the 'beneficiaries (for lack of better word) or shareholders of the State are the people of New Zealand
2. The beneficiaries of Ngai Tahu are the peoples who are descended form the 1848 blue book being the census of tribal members alive at that time

Both the State AND Ngai Tahu have business interests to generate income for the people who collectively own them - that is the beneficiaries or populace at large

3. A PRIVATE business enterprise is owned by shareholders - NOT by the populace or tribe at large as of right.
4. Private business is funded BY the shareholders as they have purchased rights to the company in the hope of financial gain from a successful business.

Since when Robert are you an expert enough to tell me that a State owned enterprise governed in the same manner as Ngai Tahu might not be efficient and profitable.

All I am saying is that the State should never sell so much as one asset and should employ separate, independent managers and directors on a performance based contract and answerable to a State owned watchdog group to run the State owned assets

If the state sell assets then only the wealthy can afford them as well as foreign investors and the populace at large then have to pay more as the so called competition is manipulated by agreement between to so called competitors as is evidence by Electricity - the prices constantly going up regardless of who you are with - the banks - in which case the larger banks eventually buying out the smaller ones until eventually you get a monopoly - eg ANZ owns National - and of course Petroleum and petroleum products price manipulation.

When it comes to the crunch the difference also between what you seem to believe in is; -
State and Ngai Tahu only need in reality to make enough money to keep their enterprises viable
Private enterprises must make enough money to keep their enterprises viable AND keep the shareholders happy and consequently the goods and services must cost more.

The tax situation is of no consequence - do the Shareholders of Fletchers pay tax to this private company going - no they do not. Nor do the tribal members of Ngai tahu - I agree with that BUT the Shareholders of a private company have to BUY the shares and the members of Ngai Tahu (here we go again) are owners of right. The populace of New Zealand own the State assets of right to BUT their elected criminals...oops government are being forced to sell those assets off to repay debts borrowed under a flawed borrowing system.

If the government was run with total efficiency then theoretically the populace might not need to pay taxes at all - would you care to tell us what the personal income tax rate in Kuwait for example is? And dont make excuses as to the reason why either. Kuwaits business interests in the oil empire provide enough funding so that private individuals do not pay taxes. New Zealand could operate the same way - firstly tell the scum who loaned us money under the Fractional reserve system to get stuffed as they had had enough - annex all ex state assets back into sate ownership then run them efficiently as Ngai tahu runs theirs - and Ngai Tahu does it with deadly efficiency and with the right organisation so can the State.

For one I would be taking over the extractive industry if I was Government - mining - Forestry can also rule supreme as overseas the forests are being depleted and our growth rate for exotics in up to half of that of the countries to which the trees are indigenous to. Where theres a will theres a way - also where theres a will theres a relative! Where businesses are managed properly there is profit.

there may be differences between Ngai tahu and the State but those differences are no where near as large as those between Ngai Tahu and the private sector.

You go on about Ngai Tahu could sell assets or business interests to the Mormon church who whoever - yes they do it BUT the criminal government also do it - so what? Remember the railways? - remember the Electricity Department? - remember the New Zealand Forest Service? - remember the good old Post and Telegraph? All sold off but not to Rooney or the Mormon church...but to rich bastards and foreign bastards!!!

Simple really - a no brainer.

Edited by user Monday, 17 September 2012 10:37:44 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

I am not going to waste my time debating with you when we have unfairly hijacked a thread about GREENSTONE - I believe what I believe based on what I READ - SEE - HEAR - STUDIED and am PART OF.

my only disappointment is that others did not partake in the dicsussion to voice their opinions to eventually shut one of us up.

To most well read people with a good understanding of comprehension anything I wrote was readily understandable and could ony be misinterpreted. misrepresented or twisted or misread by someone who had a hidden agenda or ulterior motive in advocating the sale of STATE owned assets to private shareholders - whether they be rich capitalistic bastards or offshore rich capitalistic bastards.

I feel Robert that throughout you have made inane excuses to support your support for selling the country down the drain to, in the end - Kissingers, Rothschilds, Morgans - tell me Robert where do YOU fit into this? Why should you support them? Why do you advocate the likes of them owning this country?

Do you think that what I say here is ridiculous? Tell us all Robert so that each and every one of us clearly understands - HOW MUCH ROYALTY DOES THE NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT GET FORM THE MACRAES GOLD? WHO GETS TO TAKE POSSESSION OF THE MACRAES GOLD?

you made an analogy between taxes and Ngai tahu and the State - you have NOT answered the question I asked you about Kuwait so we all know the truth - you see that taking Kuwait into account there is actually no analogy between the State and Ngai Tahu as a wealthy State does NOT NEED TO TAX THE PEOPLE

Your words 'I am emphasizing this because you keep using the tribe and its investment corporation as a model of how you think the government should run state owned assets. These are very very different things and are not comparable.'
My answer - 'Bullshit' - Kuwait?

Edited by user Monday, 17 September 2012 11:21:58 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Lammerlaw,

Ha ha ha, I hijacked the thread?!!! My first post that could be considered a hijack was #17. I would say the highjack started at #6...

It is unfortunate that we got hung up in details and definitions and were never able debate the actual issue: the merits of socialism vs capitalism. But you are clearly taking this personally and I do not think it is worth any hard feeling so I will concede. WORKERS OF THE WORLD, UNITE!





Would love to talk about gold, need to find some first...

My last contribution if you have nothing else to say - you did not answer the questions I posed you re Kuwait nor a couple of others so assume that the honest answers would not fit into your scheme of things etc.

Confucius once said "More enemies made from behind the anonymity of a keyboard than face to face" - I dont like computers and would never have bought one of the accursed things if it had not been bought with 'white mans money compensation for injustices past' - If I didnt know you personally as an all round good guy and friend I would probably have told you your pedigree in a series of expletives using unprintable words in a variety of dialects!

Did someone say Gold/ Wasnt this thread about Greenstone...or was it politics...or was it the politics of Greenstone?