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Is this a bullet?

Metal Kiwi		Posted : Monday, 26 December 2011 3:44:10 PM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Ingot Groups: Registered Joined: 19/06/2011(UTC) Posts: 1,210 Location: Auckland Thanks: 498 times Was thanked: 484 time(s) in 322 post(s)		Found this in a park last week and not sure if it is bullet or not Measures approx 8mm x 32mm and looks like copper. The curious thing is that blunt end is swagged a bit which would have jammed in the barrel. Any comments welcome. Metal Kiwi attached the following image(s):
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Lammerlaw		Posted : Monday, 26 December 2011 3:49:48 PM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Ingot Groups: Registered Joined: 24/05/2011(UTC) Posts: 1,721 Thanks: 72 times Was thanked: 579 time(s) in 396 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Metal Kiwi Found this in a park last week and not sure if it is bullet or not Measures approx 8mm x 32mm and looks like copper. The curious thing is that blunt end is swagged a bit which would have jammed in the barrel. Any comments welcome. Yes it is a bullet - you can see the rifling marks and wonders never cease - bullets do tend to get deformed after they have been fired and hit things - the heads get squashed and when the head travelling at 2000 foot per second wallops into something at that speed the arse which is also travelling at 2000 fps does its level best to keep going and tends to deform somewha.

Metal Kiwi		Posted : Monday, 26 December 2011 4:08:46 PM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Ingot Groups: Registered Joined: 19/06/2011(UTC) Posts: 1,210 Location: Auckland Thanks: 498 times Was thanked: 484 time(s) in 322 post(s)		Thanks Lammerlaw I had a feeling you would jump in to this one. I was fairly sure it was a bullet because of the marks but as it is the first I have found decided to get opinion. One curious thing is that with a stopping force enough to push the arse in why is the nose in such good shape I wonder? Happy New Year.
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Lammerlaw		Posted : Monday, 26 December 2011 5:10:51 PM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Ingot Groups: Registered Joined: 24/05/2011(UTC) Posts: 1,721 Thanks: 72 times Was thanked: 579 time(s) in 396 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Metal Kiwi Thanks Lammerlaw I had a feeling you would jump in to this one. I was fairly sure it was a bullet because of the marks but as it is the first I have found decided to get opinion. One curious thing is that with a stopping force enough to push the arse in why is the nose in such good shape I wonder? Happy New Year. A very good point and indeed one I wondered myself - it can however be explained by the fact that the bullet may have been deflected and begun to tumble so that it struck arse end first - it has well defined rifling so it would not have tumbled due to any fault in the barrel or rifling.

DrunkBrother		Posted : Monday, 26 December 2011 5:34:38 PM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Ingot Groups: Registered, Moderators Joined: 27/11/2011(UTC) Posts: 911 Location: Auckland Thanks: 21 times Was thanked: 206 time(s) in 161 post(s)		Meanwhile 30 years ago : - What are we gonna do today ? - Make the Bullet Fly Arse forward! Edited by user Monday, 26 December 2011 5:36:30 PM(UTC) \| Reason: Not specified
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nzpoohbear40		Posted : Tuesday, 27 December 2011 12:33:46 AM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Ingot Groups: Registered Joined: 14/07/2011(UTC) Posts: 1,482 Location: Matura Thanks: 26 times Was thanked: 384 time(s) in 329 post(s)		could of also been fired into somthing soft that wouldnt of sqashed the head...i also have a fired round with the point still on it...were in the park was it found...and was there psoibly sandhills there at some time that they might of used for a firing range backdrop.
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mineforgold.co.nz		Posted : Tuesday, 27 December 2011 5:59:37 PM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Ingot Groups: Registered Joined: 14/11/2011(UTC) Posts: 299 Location: Nelson Thanks: 58 times Was thanked: 38 time(s) in 35 post(s)		I found a couple today that haven't suffered any point damage. Edited by user Tuesday, 27 December 2011 6:25:33 PM(UTC) \| Reason: Not specified
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bittenbythebug		Posted : Tuesday, 27 December 2011 6:47:04 PM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Nugget Groups: Registered Joined: 27/11/2011(UTC) Posts: 56 Location: Wellington Thanks: 22 times Was thanked: 20 time(s) in 12 post(s)		Mineforgold - They look like early .303 projectiles used in the early 1900s. Good find!

Lammerlaw		Posted : Tuesday, 27 December 2011 7:17:28 PM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Ingot Groups: Registered Joined: 24/05/2011(UTC) Posts: 1,721 Thanks: 72 times Was thanked: 579 time(s) in 396 post(s)		Originally Posted by: bittenbythebug Mineforgold - They look like early .303 projectiles used in the early 1900s. Good find! I think that is a 100% correct deduction - they were 215grains and good projectiles - Just after WWI National Cartridge Company of Toronto, Canada took bullets loaded with these projectiles and cutting the top 10mm or so of the nickel jacket off made them into rounded soft points - all good so far but when they were fired the odd one left the nickel jacket in the bore so that when the next shot was fired it was bye bye rifle. Good finds - a faint chance that they might also be an early 8mm round but I doubt it. Edited by user Tuesday, 27 December 2011 7:37:32 PM(UTC) \| Reason: Not specified

mineforgold.co.nz		Posted : Tuesday, 27 December 2011 11:58:16 PM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Ingot Groups: Registered Joined: 14/11/2011(UTC) Posts: 299 Location: Nelson Thanks: 58 times Was thanked: 38 time(s) in 35 post(s)		That old? I imagine they would have gone straight through an animal unless they hit something pretty hard.
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Lammerlaw		Posted : Wednesday, 28 December 2011 10:00:37 AM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Ingot Groups: Registered Joined: 24/05/2011(UTC) Posts: 1,721 Thanks: 72 times Was thanked: 579 time(s) in 396 post(s)		Originally Posted by: mineforgold.co.nz That old? I imagine they would have gone straight through an animal unless they hit something pretty hard. Yessir - that old! The 215 grain projectile was introduced I think in the year 1890 and was at its zenith during the period through to about 1904 and used up to WWI for Military use. I also think that a copper jacketed 215 grain projectile was issued as a proof load in 1918. Probably also loaded up through the 1920s and maybe beyond...I note one with a softpoint here dated 1928.(CAC) and two other CAC loadings here with 30 and 31 on them for 1930 and 1931 - I suspect that the may have been Military loadings revamped and converted to soft points - to the best of my knowledge sporting loaded cartridges were not dated but may be wrong. If they are sporting projectiles in a dated cartridge they may be converted Military loads which could indicate that Military 215 grain projectiles were made up to 1931 inclusive...maybe later. The oldest New Zealand Colonial Ammunition Company (CAC) Military loading in 215 grains is dated 1917. I also note sporting 215 grain loadings by Dominion Arsenal (Canada) and Dominion Cartridge also of Canada. Your ones are froma cartridge made prior to 1931 I would think, most likely WWI era BUT that doesnt mean that they were fried off then - I fired off a few dozen of these 215 grain cartridges about ten years ago up at my place at imaginary Japanese hoards, Martians, tin cans, more imaginary Banzai Warriors and rocks. Like all solid projectiles they were made to go straight through - for Military purposes soft points were banned unless you were shooting natives who had never heard of the rules of warfare! The British had soft points banned to protect themselves I suppose while making concave and flat nose soft lead bullets for their .455 revolvers to shoot natives with...they went by the idea that because they were whitemen then white men had to be shot in a civilized fashion but when it came to natives anything was fair! Edited by user Wednesday, 28 December 2011 10:40:49 AM(UTC) \| Reason: Not specified

mineforgold.co.nz		Posted : Wednesday, 28 December 2011 1:41:04 PM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Ingot Groups: Registered Joined: 14/11/2011(UTC) Posts: 299 Location: Nelson Thanks: 58 times Was thanked: 38 time(s) in 35 post(s)		Were the early goat/deer cullers issued with army surplus? I know I have some Russian army ammo that came with a fully wooded, bayonet ready, blunderbuss that I bought for pigs. I found that deafening noise and blinding flash with follow up smoke screen gave any animal that you missed a somewhat unfair advantage (or for that matter one that you hit and did not directly drop), so I did not use it much. It sounds like it was probably a good thing as I had drilled the ends of the projectiles so could have ended up with jackets wedged in the barrel.
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Lammerlaw		Posted : Wednesday, 28 December 2011 1:50:44 PM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Ingot Groups: Registered Joined: 24/05/2011(UTC) Posts: 1,721 Thanks: 72 times Was thanked: 579 time(s) in 396 post(s)		Originally Posted by: mineforgold.co.nz Were the early goat/deer cullers issued with army surplus? I know I have some Russian army ammo that came with a fully wooded, bayonet ready, blunderbuss that I bought for pigs. I found that deafening noise and blinding flash with follow up smoke screen gave any animal that you missed a somewhat unfair advantage (or for that matter one that you hit and did not directly drop), so I did not use it much. It sounds like it was probably a good thing as I had drilled the ends of the projectiles so could have ended up with jackets wedged in the barrel. A lot of the early cullers did have army ammunition but many either chiselled a cross into the top of the projectile or the more scientific guys took a file, nicked the top then drilled a fine hole about 4mm into the end of the projectile - CAC took a large number of ex army issue ammunition after WWII and drilled small holes into the tops of the projectiles to make it 'Hollow point sporting' ammunition. I assume the Russian rifle you are referring to is either an SKS, an AK47 or a Mossin Nagant - the former two are good goat blasters and fun guns while the Nagant is a good rifle for most sporting game in New Zealand...the bayonet has the added advantage of...come to think of it theres no advantage in the bayonet.

mineforgold.co.nz		Posted : Wednesday, 28 December 2011 2:08:37 PM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Ingot Groups: Registered Joined: 14/11/2011(UTC) Posts: 299 Location: Nelson Thanks: 58 times Was thanked: 38 time(s) in 35 post(s)		Yes that would be the Mossin Nagant 762x54 I never actually had a bayonet to fit - I am sure it would have been just the thing in case of a grizzly bar attack. The ramrod on the other hand was a handy addition. As luck would have it, I never had cause for it on that rifle, although I could have used it when I successfully attempted a face landing over a cliff on another occasion that resulted in a barrel full of mud on my .243
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creamer		Posted : Thursday, 29 December 2011 9:35:43 AM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Ingot Medals: Groups: Registered Joined: 19/06/2011(UTC) Posts: 2,022 Location: Bay of Islands Thanks: 2289 times Was thanked: 525 time(s) in 391 post(s)		Hi there Metalkiwi. I do remember seeing amunition loaded backwards as in the bullet head loaded back to front. I do believe this was for close quarter shots in the trenches of the great war/wars. Possibly thats why the bullet is the way it is. Shane
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Metal Kiwi		Posted : Thursday, 29 December 2011 9:43:54 AM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Ingot Groups: Registered Joined: 19/06/2011(UTC) Posts: 1,210 Location: Auckland Thanks: 498 times Was thanked: 484 time(s) in 322 post(s)		Hi Shane, Interesting theory. I have never heard of that before. Bit of a mystery really. Chris.
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creamer		Posted : Thursday, 29 December 2011 9:54:40 AM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Ingot Medals: Groups: Registered Joined: 19/06/2011(UTC) Posts: 2,022 Location: Bay of Islands Thanks: 2289 times Was thanked: 525 time(s) in 391 post(s)		The backwards bullet was used to hit the steel plate that the snipers used to hide behind in the trenches. A piece would fly of the back and hit the sniper. Shane
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Lammerlaw		Posted : Thursday, 29 December 2011 10:18:11 AM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Ingot Groups: Registered Joined: 24/05/2011(UTC) Posts: 1,721 Thanks: 72 times Was thanked: 579 time(s) in 396 post(s)		Originally Posted by: creamer The backwards bullet was used to hit the steel plate that the snipers used to hide behind in the trenches. A piece would fly of the back and hit the sniper. Shane Hmmm - I havent heard of that - it doesnt make sense as a bullet loaded backward would tumble in flight and have no accuracy at all. I dont know how they would load the bullet in the trenches as you need a kinetic bullet puller to remove the projectile from the shell then you have to turn it and have a crimper to replace it If they were going to try those tricks then they would merely nick the head or file the head flatter. A pointed projectile with solid head also has a great deal more penetration than the arse end which is flat and would just go 'splat' as standard bullets have lead cores. What you say about a piece peeling off the armour plating and hitting the sniper behind the shield is quite feasible however and I am now interested in finding out if they did indeed use the ploy you suggest but it would have to be close range before the projectile tumbled. Rushes off to do some googling....... Well Shane after writing the above I did indeed do some very fast research by typing in 'Reversing bullet projectile in trenches' and indeed you are so right - First reference was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-tank_rifle There seems to be alot of debate and conjecture on the Militaria forums about this but as a result of having a quick read I now have no reason to disbelieve that it was tried and it did have some affect. I note that when the projectile was reversed they added more powder to give it more zap. Edited by user Thursday, 29 December 2011 10:21:06 AM(UTC) \| Reason: Not specified

creamer		Posted : Thursday, 29 December 2011 10:49:54 AM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Ingot Medals: Groups: Registered Joined: 19/06/2011(UTC) Posts: 2,022 Location: Bay of Islands Thanks: 2289 times Was thanked: 525 time(s) in 391 post(s)		Yes, the whole concept is somewot dodgy from the start. I guess the idea was to at least maim the sniper to some degree as they were hard to get at. Was probably easier than tryin for a head shot. Still, wots the odds of finding such a bullet head at that spot. Shane
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Metal Kiwi		Posted : Friday, 30 December 2011 10:41:39 AM(UTC)
Rank: Gold Ingot Groups: Registered Joined: 19/06/2011(UTC) Posts: 1,210 Location: Auckland Thanks: 498 times Was thanked: 484 time(s) in 322 post(s)		This bullet was found in a local sports park where there have not been any snipers holed up behind metal sheets as far as I am aware. That's with or without trenches although there used to be market gardens in the area if that helps. So the mystery continues ..........?
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