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gavin  
Posted : Wednesday, 13 March 2013 6:43:47 PM(UTC)
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Not that it's going to put me off, but came across this article and figured some of you might find it interesting...

http://qz.com/61896/gold-is-the-worst-investment-of-2013/
Lammerlaw  
Posted : Wednesday, 13 March 2013 8:54:26 PM(UTC)
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Yes sir it sure is - its a bit like years ago getting down to the river and heres a bloke in my whitebait possie and he asked if I thought the whitebait would run that day - I felt terribly guilty later for telling him that they would NOT run well that day as he packed and went home and I got 7 or 8 pounds of whitebait.

Most people may not think my analogy is appropriate but it is because often people, organisations and institutions will paint a gloomy picture thus forcing prices lower to suit their own ends - while they buy it.

Yes gold has taken a dive BUT historically it always recovers better and of a much higher value than ever before. If you can afford to then now is the time to buy.
andy  
Posted : Wednesday, 13 March 2013 9:32:54 PM(UTC)
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gold is a bloody terible investment for me...i cant seem to find any...
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fish  
Posted : Wednesday, 13 March 2013 10:24:35 PM(UTC)
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I agree with that. As economy's improve globally which they are showing signs of, gold will drop or not rise. If things turn to custard gold will rise. Not that any of that will stop me looking for it though.
lifejockey  
Posted : Wednesday, 13 March 2013 10:50:33 PM(UTC)
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Obviously not worth finding so I just discriminate it out....
Gold Bug Pro and Lots of Hope
oroplata  
Posted : Wednesday, 13 March 2013 11:01:50 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: fish Go to Quoted Post
As economy's improve globally which they are showing signs of


Say WHAT?

The only thing that's improving is the US stock market, and that's only because they've decided that they have to prop it up at all costs. It all goes up but the actual volumes are extremely low, which indicates some people selling shares to each other at a loss to keep the prices going up, because no one is really buying.

Saying gold is the worst investment in 2013 is ridiculous - you don't buy gold for a short term gain (usually), you get it for long term portfolio security. And right now is a great time to buy. Which is probably what the people that wrote that article are doing right now.

fish  
Posted : Wednesday, 13 March 2013 11:41:35 PM(UTC)
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Well its all subjective of course, but there are other indicators of recovery apart from us stocks.

You do realize the article says 2013 so its only short term, it isnt talking about long term, and theres nothing wrong with buying anything for a short term investment including gold, its a great way to make money, and lose money to of course, I generally buy stocks only for the capital gain, which is short term.

You have been watching the gold price falling lately? Personally I wouldnt buy gold now as I think its going to trend down for 2013 and there will be better more profitable things to trade, but you can buy it and prove me wrong. I will stick to other things for 2013, at the moment.
Strider  
Posted : Thursday, 14 March 2013 3:51:53 PM(UTC)
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I like to do some research before I put my 5 cents in.....

On the comment "global economy improving". Judging the global economic recovery from the health of the stock markets is a little near sighted. If we utilise some indicators as suggested it may give us a better indication. AND before anyone pipes up and say that indicator is b.s, I would say yes it has it flaws but we are better off trying to view the economy through someone else’s spectacles then with a blindfold...

If we look at GDP growth since 2010 we would see that USA and NZ have maintained approx 2% GDP over that period - Not fantastic but not bad either
China and India's GDP growth has reduced considerably since 2010 but the rate of change in GDP has also reduced and is now plateauing out. Last reported was 7.9 and 4.5 respectively. - A reduction in GDP in this case is a good thing as it was the aim of the govt to increase stability as the excessive growth created concerns of a 'bubble'.
Europe GDP has been decreasing since 2010 and has been of a negative value since 2012, last stated was -0.9% - ok not great and outlook doesn't look much better in the near term. However they are unlikely to drop off the face of the globe with China and others have 'interests' in the euro zone since buying a lot of the debt.

I was going to weigh in with unemployment rates but that is one seriously flawed indicator.

So if we take a quick snapshot of the global economy, I wouldn't go as far as saying things are improving but would be more inclined to say that it would appear the from the measures governments have taken, the situation seems to be stabilizing.

So if the global economy is stabilizing, then it will be less likely that we are going to see a Gold Standard being adopted and it is more likely that the financial Armageddon fear that had been one of the contributing factors to the increase in the price gold is abating.

Now let’s say the year is 1985 and we buy an ounce of gold for our investment portfolio at $300 USD,
As this a long term, we will put it aside for our new born son to have when he is 20.
So come 2005, our son receives the ounce of gold and decides to sell it and receives $450 USD

A 50% increase in a portfolio investment, not to bad!
But a 2.5% return on an investment per year.......... not good. Considering that the average inflation rate over that period was just under 5%, you have actually lost money.

Am I been selective with my choice of years? Nope, if I was I would have picked the time peroid between 1983 when gold was $500 USD and used 1999 as the selling point when gold was at $250.

My point here is that there are times to invest in gold and times to invest elsewhere.

Edited by user Thursday, 14 March 2013 3:53:54 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

auinbox  
Posted : Thursday, 14 March 2013 6:07:23 PM(UTC)
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Personally i would not mind if the arse feel out of the gold market.
If it drops to a price that greedy b-stards and multinationals
can not afford to run their over sized claims they may have to
let go some of their land back for others.
Crusader  
Posted : Saturday, 16 March 2013 3:03:28 PM(UTC)
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Depends what you read - have a look at this article:

http://www.moneyweek.com/news-a.../03-gold-v-us-debt-00003

That may change your opinion?
Strider  
Posted : Saturday, 16 March 2013 11:35:25 PM(UTC)
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At first glance that is a pretty interesting article. Just by looking at the graph one would automatically think that:

1. There is a direct correlation between the level of US public debt and that of the Price level of Gold in USD.

2. Since gold is below the top of the red shaded area, we should see a convergence of the level of US public debt and Price Level of gold in the future.

The next question is, should I dig into my deep pockets and start buying gold on the basis of this information or should I do a little research and look at what are the main contributing factors to the level of US Public Debt?

Firstly when we look at the red shaded area (level of Public Debt), it seems pretty consistent up until the end of 2001. Hard to tell the relationship prior as this is a very subjective snapshot. However, the increase in Public Debt coincides with the start of the "war on terror" which was the start of a very big leak in the 'bucket' aka US economy.

Then shortly afterwards in 2003 we see that the hole in the bucket gets a bit bigger with the invasion of Iraq.

From 2003 to 2008 the hole in the bucket seems to be getting bigger at a constant rate as America finds itself fighting two asymmetrical war's that seem to require more and more resources.

Then to make matters worse, we have the GFC at the end of 2008 to compound the situation. This is clearly represented in the sudden jump of the government debt at the end of 2008 of which one could hypothesis was the result of a combination of quantitative easing and bailouts.

Now what have we seen since then,

We had the finally withdraw of troops from Iraq in 2011, we have had a series of quantitative easing initiatives, and we are currently seeing a transition of power from NATO soldiers in Afghanistan to the Local Authorities.

Therefore as we see the near complete withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan in 2014, combined with defense cuts starting with $46 billion from the 2013 financial year, and additional cuts from across the services sector, that hole in the bucket which controls the RATE at which the US government accrues debt will start to get smaller.

So over the next 12-18months we will see two of the three contributing factors that increase of US public debt reduced greatly. There will be still some ongoing contributions to the Iraq and Afghan governments but this may be offset by the establishment of US resource company's in those countries. China already has their fingers in Afghanistan mining copper;

http://in.reuters.com/ar...na-idINDEE8AS0E220121129

"WOAH hang on dude" your probably saying if your still reading, what about all this business with North Korea? Isn't there a Nuclear Armageddon on the Horizon? Didn't the US just beef up there missile defenses on the West Coast?

"Yeah, nah". The beefing up as such is just a precautionary measure that the media is latching onto to try to establish an environment of fear as that is what they love to do. Instead of bringing all available information to the table for all to be fully informed they are being very selective and constructing a 'story' of which they think will sell. Getting a little off track here though.

As pointed out earlier, war has been costing the US economy a lot of money and they are very apprehensive about starting another. Hence their limited involvement in Libya, Syria and Mali. The North Korean's have a long history of making threats and not carrying out any action;

http://www.businessinsid...-threats-to-south-2013-3

Just to reiterate, the beefing up of missile defense systems is just a precautionary, and most likely as history has shown, this will all once again just be some playground jibba jabba from the North Koreans.

Ok, so war and defense expenses over the next 12-18months will be a greatly reduced. What will this do to the rate of change in US public debt? It will greatly reduce that rate of change.

This leaves us with what will happen in regards to that last contributing factor, Quantitative easing? Given the complexity of today's markets, I don't think even Bernanke fully knows the answer to that question. But if we look at the US debt to GDP ratio

http://www.tradingeconom...s/government-debt-to-gdp

You will notice that the RATE of change is decreasing here also. So along with other indicators that I have pointed out previously, it would appear that the US economy is STABILIZING. Therefore if the US economy is stabilizing and they are reducing their expenses at the same time, it is highly likely that the level of quantitative easing will start reducing by 2015 also.

Now what does it mean if that hole in the leaky bucket is finally blocked? It means the RATE of change in Debt will reduce to a minimum and that red line in the graph will flatten out. Then if we are to assume that the price level of gold and level of public debt are lovers that always want to be together on this graph, then one day they will meet again as convergence theory suggests in this subjective snapshot shown on the link in Crusaders post.

So if the hole is blocked, the public debt may top out at 18 trillion. Then carrying on with the assumption of convergence, this would mean that gold would come up for snuggles around the $2000 price level in 3-4 years time. This would give a return between 6.25-8.33% per annum.

Thats ok, a little better then the expected 4% from Westpac over the same time period.

But if we are talking about our retirement funds, or long term investment, then we need to look 5-10 years plus. AND if the price of gold has flat lined as suggested, then we can expect 0% from our gold held and my point stands;

There is a time to invest in gold and a time to invest elsewhere.

Last point,

You need to do your research into correlation trends, or even trends in general. For example the following article;

https://www.etfdigest.co...f-Currency-War-GLD-.html

If we were to decide whether to hold or sell from the correlation between the price level of gold and its relationship with the Mining Index, we would all be selling our gold as this indicator suggests that gold will be going down to $1400 USD.

By looking at one set of data and saying "hey there is a trend there, lets invest!" is premature....... We could take the same line with the view that whenever the AUD is increasing in value against the USD it is a good time to buy NZD/USD as there appears to be a direct correlation there. And since the AUD increased by 2 cents last week, now is a good time.

Might sound good to someone far off in Africa but ask anyone in NZ about the current situation and they will most likely tell you that our main exports, dairy and meat and are currently getting a hammering by the drought and with the outlook bleak, it is highly likely that the forecast of future economic indicators will be downgraded and we will see a depreciation in the NZD, or words to that effect.

That is all
oroplata  
Posted : Sunday, 17 March 2013 12:37:44 AM(UTC)
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Interesting post. Thanks.

This is an interesting read too - I can only find a PDF version...

http://www.edelweissjour...EdelweissJournal-012.pdf

Highly recommended reading.

Strider  
Posted : Sunday, 17 March 2013 12:58:30 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: oroplata Go to Quoted Post

Interesting post. Thanks.

This is an interesting read too - I can only find a PDF version...

http://www.edelweissjour...EdelweissJournal-012.pdf

Highly recommended reading.



That is a good read!
Golddigger7  
Posted : Monday, 18 March 2013 8:01:52 AM(UTC)
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LOL, I just like gold mining, good gold price is a bonus and I sell, soft gold price means I just keep the gold.
Lammerlaw  
Posted : Monday, 18 March 2013 11:25:17 AM(UTC)
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I never really cared about gold price but I have had so much fun watching the gold price and on many many occasions during the course of the day looked at the gold price and made a quick calculation and said "Oh cripey I just lost ten grand overnight" or "Golly I am worth ten thousand more today than I was yesterday"

To me it isnt about the price of gold as it is merely another egg in the basket and a good thing to have and even if it is going down then rest assured it will recover bigger and better...buy now while it is on the way down and you will not lose - I have tracked the price of gold since 1970 and during those forty and more years have watched it rise and fall but always to rise bigger and better.

Edited by user Monday, 18 March 2013 12:14:47 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

expat  
Posted : Monday, 18 March 2013 11:50:20 AM(UTC)
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I know exactly what you mean Lammer, only yesterday when the price of silver fell I lost $6.50. Not a good day I can tell you. ;-)

Edited by user Monday, 18 March 2013 1:32:48 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified




My greatest fear is that when I die my wife will sell my collection for what I told her it cost me.
Lammerlaw  
Posted : Monday, 18 March 2013 12:47:08 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: expat Go to Quoted Post
I know exactly what you mean Lammer, only yesterday when the price of silver fell I lost $6.50. Not a good day I can tell you.


You only just reminded me that yesterday I had an interesting conversation with a cousin and told her about my Brother in law - Now my Mudder in law never liked me - something to do with me telling her she was a murderer for sort of callously demanding that the life support be taken of my Father in law after he had an aneurysm...he was a good guy. She made sure that when she carked it I wouldnt get a solitary thing out of her. I wasnt allowed near the house when things were getting biffed, chucked and otherwise sorted, divided and disposed of. The Brother in law found a canvas bad full of 'old crap' and with a comment similar to "I dont know why she kept this shit" threw it onto the trailer.
When the trailer was about to head to the tip the wolf struck - photo shows just some of the 'rubbish' my brother in law had thrown out - about 160 ounces of it counting some La de da silver drinking mugs...dating I think from around 1800 through to mid Victorian.

Edited by user Monday, 18 March 2013 1:19:18 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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oroplata  
Posted : Monday, 18 March 2013 12:52:53 PM(UTC)
oroplata

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Originally Posted by: expat Go to Quoted Post
I know exactly what you mean Lammer, only yesterday when the price of silver fell I lost $6.50. Not a good day I can tell you.


You'd be feeling happier today though? :)

oroplata  
Posted : Monday, 18 March 2013 12:54:44 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Lammerlaw Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: expat Go to Quoted Post
The Brother in law found a canvas bad full of 'old crap' and with a comment similar to "I dont know why she kept this shit" threw it onto the trailer.


Fairly shallow gene pool over at the in-law's, huh?

Lammerlaw  
Posted : Monday, 18 March 2013 1:23:37 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: oroplata Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Lammerlaw Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: expat Go to Quoted Post
The Brother in law found a canvas bad full of 'old crap' and with a comment similar to "I dont know why she kept this shit" threw it onto the trailer.


Fairly shallow gene pool over at the in-law's, huh?



The Gene pool - it has been said that the upper crust were all interbred and quite mad so maybe...but then again the old batfink did come from two or three of Canterburys wealthiest famdamilies.

Edited by user Monday, 18 March 2013 3:33:01 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified