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Theft by finding - So lets touch on this part of Low
DrunkBrother  
Posted : Thursday, 12 July 2012 3:44:13 PM(UTC)
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Ok, i finally found what we,metal detectorists, can face in the event we find something, but do not turn into police , then later try to sell/gift/whatever and someone identifies the item

Anyone out there has a lawer who can confirm the details of "theft by finding" for New Zealand?

Regards

Max

*2014*Rings PlT/PD=0 GOLD=30 STG=53 Junk=46
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Metal Kiwi  
Posted : Thursday, 12 July 2012 3:52:43 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DrunkBrother Go to Quoted Post
Ok, i finally found what we,metal detectorists, can face in the event we find something, but do not turn into police , then later try to sell/gift/whatever and someone identifies the item

Anyone out there has a lawer who can confirm the details of "theft by finding" for New Zealand?

Regards

Max



Interesting point.
Probably a good reason not to ID the recovery location of a valuable item on a blog
or similar so as the claimer has to provide some information as to exactly where it was lost
and so confirm their possible ownership.
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1864hatter  
Posted : Thursday, 12 July 2012 4:22:39 PM(UTC)
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Any would be claimant of anything we find should also be required to prove they have not been reimbursed by their insurance company!!! And if they have been paid out they should be required to return the payment to their company or they are double dipping.
And now....On sandy beaches and muddy soil, rings and coins await my coil!
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Metal Kiwi  
Posted : Thursday, 12 July 2012 4:41:43 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: 1864hatter Go to Quoted Post
Any would be claimant of anything we find should also be required to prove they have not been reimbursed by their insurance company!!! And if they have been paid out they should be required to return the payment to their company or they are double dipping.


I think if a claim has been paid out then the found item becomes the property of the insurance company.
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Lammerlaw  
Posted : Thursday, 12 July 2012 8:28:29 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Metal Kiwi Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: 1864hatter Go to Quoted Post
Any would be claimant of anything we find should also be required to prove they have not been reimbursed by their insurance company!!! And if they have been paid out they should be required to return the payment to their company or they are double dipping.


I think if a claim has been paid out then the found item becomes the property of the insurance company.


That is what I believe - if we find anything of any value which has been pre owned and readily identifiable like a ring, watch etc then we have a legal and moral obligation to surrender it to the police - no buts, no excuses and no exceptions - the police then keep custody of it for a certain period of time and if there are no claimants it is returned to finder and becomes yours - lock, stock and barrel...quite painless really.

If the owner has claimed insurance then it is legally the property of the Insurance company to the beast of my knowledge.

If it is engraved with then owners name and you return it then you might have unwittingly given them the means to double dip - they have their property and they have also made an Insurance claim...I would take it to the police in order to circumvent them double dipping.

If it is not readily identifiable and you surrender it to the police and an Insurance claim has been made against that item then the Insurance company probably will not know in order to obtain possession of what is legally theirs and it will be returned to you and you will become the owner all fair, square and legal.

If you surrender it to the police and they track the owner or have a record of the owner then the police will possibly ascertain whether an Insurance claim has been made and forward it to them for disposal but if not then hopefully it becomes yours.

Hope all that made some sort of sense!

In saying all that I think I would hand it in to the police - I THINK.
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gjj109  
Posted : Friday, 13 July 2012 1:42:20 PM(UTC)
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With regard to physical property there are two things to consider: 1) The physical property or item itself and 2) title to that item.

If I sell or give something to you, the physical item changes hands and also title to that item. It is now yours to do with as you wish as I have willingly disposed of it.

If something steals something from me and then gives or sells that item to you, the physical item has changed hands - you now have it, but title to that item (call it ownership rights if you like) remains with me as I have not willingly given that title away. The item still "belongs" to me, even though I no longer have it. If the item is found, by the Police or whoever, it is returned to me, even though you may have paid for it.

If you find an item, you have a legal obligation to take reasonable steps to return it to the owner. If you do not take reasonable steps, that is when you may commit the offence of "theft by finding".

In the case of a 20c piece lying on the footpath, there are no reasonable steps you can take.

In the case of valuable or identifiable items, the reasonable step is to hand it to the Police. If they are unable to return it to the owner, they will give the property to you, but title to that property remains with the original person who lost it. If at some future time, the identity of that person becomes known, then they are entitled to regain possession of the property - i.e. you have to give it back to them.

If the insurance company has paid out on a claim, the title to the property passes to the insurance company. They are now the owner.



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Hunter  
Posted : Friday, 13 July 2012 2:48:10 PM(UTC)
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But what if the item is old ? then what, whos to say how long it has been underground point in question one of the medals i found is gold and has a name on it and a date 1923 you know that is was sombodies in the 1920s, in this case there were 4 people with the same last name in the phone book I rang them and no one knew about this medal why would I hand into the police for? should I hand into the police?
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Other Gold items- 4
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Metal Kiwi  
Posted : Friday, 13 July 2012 3:14:36 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Hunter Go to Quoted Post
But what if the item is old ? then what, whos to say how long it has been underground point in question one of the medals i found is gold and has a name on it and a date 1923 you know that is was sombodies in the 1920s, in this case there were 4 people with the same last name in the phone book I rang them and no one knew about this medal why would I hand into the police for? should I hand into the police?


I dont think I would Hunter.
It is too old.
My rule of thumb is a "surface or close to it" find should be considered for presentation to the constable but if it is old and / or deep probably not.
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DrunkBrother  
Posted : Friday, 13 July 2012 3:35:56 PM(UTC)
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Quote:

My rule of thumb is a "surface or close to it" find should be considered for presentation to the constable but if it is old and / or deep probably not.


Technically from LAW prospective that part would go under TREASURE and considered an archeological find.
Like Imagine Finding stupid old Can Opener from the end of 1800s - that will be an archeologicla find :/
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gjj109  
Posted : Friday, 13 July 2012 3:44:22 PM(UTC)
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Hunter- You have made reasonable enquiries to locate the owner. What else should/ or could you do that is reasonable?

In your case, I would retain this excellent find.

In your case drunkbrother, who gives a toss how old the can opener or other unidentifiable items are. Like a musket ball, or 1888 penny.

Finders keepers, surely.
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mineforgold.co.nz  
Posted : Friday, 13 July 2012 10:43:58 PM(UTC)
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I hope it wasn't in contact with water .. there might be other rights involved if it was.
Own: Lobo SuperTraq, Garrett ATPro, Minelab Excalibur
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keywikiwi  
Posted : Friday, 13 July 2012 11:08:45 PM(UTC)
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lol
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chrischch  
Posted : Saturday, 14 July 2012 12:05:50 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: mineforgold.co.nz Go to Quoted Post
I hope it wasn't in contact with water .. there might be other rights involved if it was.


Great post! :)
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rgmcbrid  
Posted : Wednesday, 29 August 2012 2:32:43 PM(UTC)
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Quote:
I hope it wasn't in contact with water .. there might be other rights involved if it was.


Thats funny, I think it needs a post award:
rgmcbrid attached the following image(s):
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